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stair on a boat
July 25, 2014
10:51 am
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Stefan

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I really wanted to see the pic of where Per Birger is on his project, so here’s a resized pic.

(Just for reference, max dimensions are 800 x 800 pixels and file size under 100 kb)

Great to see it in situ!

bilde-forum.jpgImage Enlarger

July 23, 2014
7:25 pm
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per birger movik

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I got a picture of the stair. Guess I didnt have correct cred to attach…..so maybe some other time….

July 23, 2014
7:15 pm
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per birger movik

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I have cut and assembled the stair. Last thing I did before we took off for vacation. I did the top step deeper than the 180mm set out in the plans. I will narrow it until it feels uncmphortable against the distance to the rim of the entrance. Thr risers are planed but not yet cut. I will also shape and sand the stair when i am back home.

Pb

July 17, 2014
4:46 am
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Ness

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Hi Per Birger,

In general the corners of the step housings can be done 3 ways.

Most of the time I rout with a 16mm cutter and leave the corners rounded.

Then I round the front edges of the steps (and lower back edge of the risers) with a 8mm radius round over bit so that the steps fit into the rounded corner. On winders the round over is also machined onto the right angled trim.

If you want squared corners the easiest thing to do is to just square the corners with a chisel. 

Sometimes I have to make a moulded nosing.

This requires cutting a scribed counter profile template/jig that I run a small diameter cutter up against once the main step housing has been routed.

nose-profile-1.jpgImage Enlarger

Good luck with the rest.

All the best,

Ness

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July 16, 2014
9:46 pm
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per birger movik

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I have completed the router guide, according to the guidelines found here at this site (members area). I have now started the carving. I quickly learned that the gross have to be removed by a 12 or 16 mm head. However, to have sharp corners a smaller router bit has to be applied. Actually I need 2 guides……

I hope to complete the router activity tomorrow. However, I have hoisted onboard a new mast on the ship. Got to take Teigevik home tommorow too. Plenty to do.

Pb

July 16, 2014
9:46 am
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Ness

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Hi Per Birger,

Of course you can use loose tenons but in my opinion tenons glued into the string thickness will not give enough strength and it’s much safer to use screws, the best being to use both screws and dowels or loose tenons (or dominos, or biscuits) to maintain alignment.

I’m glad the lower lh stringer didn’t give you a problem.

All the best,

Ness

July 16, 2014
9:03 am
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per birger movik

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Hi Forum,

I have read and understood your response. Helped a lot. 

As for the outter corner. Why doesnt loose tenons come in as an option?

I noticed the slim lower lh stringer. No problem. I have already added wood here sufficient to cover the steps/risers. I will shape the stringers when they are assembled.

Per Birger

July 16, 2014
8:07 am
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Ness

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Hi Per Birger,

You will find many of your questions answered in the the Stair eBook library Stair Design Preliminaires. You can download this from the ebook library here:

Stair eBook Library

1. I have not set up the strings penetrating into the newels. If necessary you can add this material to the part but I would suggest that you use a dowel (biscuit or domino or false tenon) and bolt joint.

Here’s and extract from the Stair Design Preliminaires showing the principle of this joint:

how-to-assemble-strings-and-newels.jpgImage Enlarger

 

You can see how to make a simple jig to make this joint easily in these videos:

bolt and dowel jig intro

how to make a bolt and dowel jig

 2. You mustn’t try to join the outer stringers at 45° . this not only makes a difficult almost impossible joint to make but is not strong enough. StairDesigner marks the joint as 45° to leave each board overlapping the other its full thickness, so that you can mark out the type of joint you want. In your case it’s possible to use several options. Here’s the suggestion in the ebook:

how-to-asemble-strings.jpgImage Enlarger

It’s possible to plug the screw holes for a more elegant finish.

In your case it might be better not to have a crotch and just have the lower string covering the upper.

screwed-strings.jpgImage Enlarger

 

In your case this  simple screwed joint would be fine .

You can eventually plug the heads but might find it OK to use brass or stainless steel and leave the heads.

If you don’t want the screw heads to show at all then make a rebated and screw joint like this:

rebat-and-screwed-strings.jpgImage Enlarger

This is more work but the screws heads are hidden up against the wall.

What ever you choose, use the inner and outer “mitre” lines to mark out the joint. 

3. The steps are marked out without the 90° angle cut at the string penetration. This is to make marking out the steps  easier and the dimensioned drawings clearer. 

It’s very easy to mark the right angle trim after the step has been cut.

step-penetration-trim.jpgImage Enlarger

To make the steps, mark them out and cut them using the extended edges. 

Draw a parallel line 15mm (depth of string penetration)  to  the end of the step.

To mark the right angle trim,  place a carpenters square on the step end and at the intersection of the step edge and the 15mm parallel line.

Note that the string housings are marked out up to the right angle trim so without the trim you will not be able to insert the step.

4. The grooves (step housings) in the strings are 15mm deep. 33-((520-484)/2). I suggest you rout the housings at 15.5 or 16mm to have a millimeter play.

5. No need to glue the stair.

Steps can be screwed from the back side of the wall sting and some small 4x60mm screws can be driven in at an angle under the the steps on the outer string.

screwing-steps.jpgImage Enlarger

In general you only have to fix the first and last steps of a flight. For long flights intermediate steps should be fixed to stop the strings from bowing out but in your case this is not necessary.

Hope it all goes well. 

Don’t hesitate to ask if you need more information.

Love to see the pics.

All the best,

Ness

PS: I noticed that on the first left string, the step and riser housings are sticking out the lower edge. This is an error of mine as I forgot to adjust the string width with all the different changes we made. You’ll have to add 50mm to the bottom of the string so that the steps don’t stick out.

July 15, 2014
7:02 pm
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per birger movik

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Hi forum,

I have started production. I have planed the steps, stringers an risers. I have cut the steps and stringers. I am working with a router guide for the steps/risers. I have to say i am not doing well. Had to call it a night as I noticed my spirit was gone. I think it might come out well, but I have to say i regret not to go for the “fake” stringer solution. Added to this, the oak is pretty tough for the rrouter to cut through.

 

A few questions;

1. Have the drawings taken into account the required material for the lh stringers to enter the newel?

2. I am not sure how to do the 45 degree corner joint (right hand upper/lower stringer)? I have to say I doubt this is a good joint. My experience is that the wood onboard will change some due to varying humidity. This will often mean that the 45 degrees modifies slightly.

3. There are steps that have corners with less than 90 degrees. These are entering the stringer but will leave an opening. This is not taken into account on the step drawings?

4. I have calculated the grooves in the stringer to be 33-(520-484)/2=20 (all mm). Is this correct?

5. I cannot remember if we ever discussed how the assemble the stair? Glue, skrews, nails…..might not be part of the package? I guess the clearances will vary depending of the way this is to be done?

I will try to put in some pics for next time!

Regards Per Birger

June 27, 2014
4:57 pm
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Ness

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Hello again Per Birger,

Here are the working documents for your stair.

They are in a compressed ZIP file that you can download with by right clicking and using the “save file as” options in the mouse menu.

When decompressed you will have the following files and folders:

  • a sds file that can be loaded into StairDesigner for viewing and editing
  • a 3D SketchUp file of the project and the different options we have discussed

A DXF folder with:

  • a 2D DXF plan and elevation of the complete stair
  • a 3D DXF file for loading into any other CAD program for 3D visualisation
  • a sub folder with a 2D DXF file of every separate part

You can use this files in CAD programs to add or verify dimensions, partial printing, editing shapes etc.

A PDF folder with:

  • A workshop document with dimensioned plans of each part and the cutting list
  • A full size template of each part ready for printing
  • A full size plan of the stair ready for printing

Be careful when printing the templates to set the print scale to 1:1 or the templates will not be useable.

Before cutting,  it’s good practice to verify the template size by cross referencing the template with the dimensions in the workshop documents.

Note that winding steps should have a corner cut off where they penetrate into housing.

I have purposely not marked this right angled trim cut on the steps.

If you’re not using CN,  it is in fact easier to mark out and build the steps by leaving the edges extended and cutting the right angled trim corner afterwards.

To do this mark the string penetration parallel to it’s end at 15mm and mark a right angle on the step end to the point the string penetration meets the step edge.

You can also make a jig to do this quickly.

Tell me if you need more information on this and I’ll make a video to explain it.

step-penetration-trim-1.jpgImage Enlarger

I wouldn’t personally put any railing on a small stair like this. 

I hope that you enjoy building this little stair and don’t hesitate to post if you need any help.

If you have time I’d love to see some photos of the finished stair and also as you build.

Love to see more photos of your boat too.

Have a great week end!

All the best,

Ness

PS: Just one more thing:

I have grooved the risers into the underside of the steps by 10mm and passed them over the back edge of the lower step.

Have a look at our “stair basics” document that you can download from ebook library for more info on this.

June 27, 2014
2:59 pm
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per birger movik

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I really appreciate your prompt response. I have no doubt that this is absolutely worth of my savings :-)

I have checked the attached jpg documents for general dimensions. It was hard to see the numbers. The length 1140mm and 860mm is what I want. The total width 520mm is also correct. The two other measurements are not easily seen – thus, not as important either. I prefer to go for the 18mm risers. The stringers should be 33mm as you have stated, leaving as much room as possible for steps. I agree on the step nosings to 45mm. You now have my agreement on overall dimensions. Please also find attached a couple of pics to visualize where the stair is to be seated.

Besides – how about railing?

pb

PS

Actually….this stair is configured with a turn. The challenge here is the headroom. Thus by having a turn I hope this would result in a less steep stair. I came to me, that I have not discussed this with you previously. I still this is a way to do it.  But, as always for the no vise, I am looking for a confirmation :-)

 

Teigevik-Trappe-03.jpgImage Enlarger

Teigevik-Trappe-04.jpgImage Enlarger

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June 27, 2014
1:35 pm
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Ness

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Hi Per Birger,

Here’s a final model with 20mm risers for your approval. To save the files to your computer, hover over each attachment, right click and select ‘save link as…’, ‘save file as…’ or similar.

Please check the attached documents for general dimensions and head room.

If your wood is not too warped,  you can plane 20mm from 1 inch boards but you might find that it would be better to go for 18mm.

Your actual stringers are 33mm,  if you are making the stringers from 2 inch boards (around 50mm) you might find that a finished thickness of 40mm will save machine time and shavings.

I can change these in the design as you want so just tell me what you think is the best for you.

One final point, I have set the step nosings to 45mm this will give a little extra foot room when climbing the stair .

I’ll process the stair and send you the working documents as soon as I get your agreement on overall dimensions.

All the best,

Ness

 

shipstair-3d01.jpgImage Enlarger

shipstair-plan.jpgImage Enlarger

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per birger movik
June 27, 2014
12:38 pm
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per birger movik

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Ness,

I agree – MDF is nott well suitable for a boat like mine. Everything I create is in solid Oak. I have 2 tons of Oak timber. Dried and cut to 1 and 2 inches thick. The 20mm sounds well enough – Ill prepare that :-)

I need the drawings really soon. 

pb

June 27, 2014
5:55 am
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Ness

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Hello Per Birger,

I’m sure  that this is going to be much more that a paper stair.

In my opinion your risers will get some kicking as the steps are narrow on the climb .

So I would strongly suggest you use some resistant material and not MDF or chip board .

You can use oak but any solid wood, ply wood or laminated board should be OK.

In solid wood the riser thickness will depend on the timber you can readily buy locally.

Over here in France I would buy 27mm rough timber and plane it to 20mm.

Rough timber will require gluing up the riser widths, step height + 10mm.

I would suggest that a minimum thickness would be at least 15mm, 18 to 20mm being better.

To gain time you can also use ply wood or laminate panels .

A good material for risers is 3 ply solid wood like this:

http://timbory.com/hp813/3-Ply…..Panels.htm

the big advantage being that you don’t have to machine and assemble .

All the best,

Ness

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per birger movik
June 27, 2014
5:34 am
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per birger movik

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I agree, lets go for the “router” version and make a professional stair…..at least on paper :-)

As for the risers (god for all material) I would like to have your suggestion. I have not prepared the material yet. So my plan is to prepare and plane the material this weekend, and if I am lucky also cut and mold. Assembly will be next weekend if I succeed this weekend. The material for this stair is white oak.

Per Birger

June 26, 2014
8:17 pm
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jimbouk

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Great thread and lovely tub! ;)

Had the opportunity to rebuild the back end of something similar on the island of corfu once a few years back. 

A strange experiance for many reasons, not least because I broke my toe on the second day when a huge section of oak fell on it. Really enjoyed it and also appreciate the amount of work they take up! Always something needs doing.

Looking forward to seeing the progress.

June 26, 2014
7:46 pm
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Ness

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Hello Per Birger,

If we extend the stair it is only outside the well by 120mm so this shouldn’t be a problem given the tight space.

Putting risers on the stair will change very little the useability. Small stairs like this are dangerous when going down because the narrow steps don’t leave a lot of space for to put your foot and your toes (that are the main balancing element of your body ) are not all on the step. In your case the steps are very narrow (180mm) and will be considered dangerous to descend, but given the low number of steps and the tight space they are usable.

Risers have no incidence when descending the stair.

Climbing the stair will always place your toes on the step and balance is less of a problem. The main problem in climbing is the height of the step that will make it steeper and more tiring to climb. But again with a very small stair like this one this is really not a problem either.

So we can easily go for a stair that’s has a second flight at 1140mm and  I can add risers with no problem.

Technically adding risers is more work and a bit more complicated. As with the steps I would strongly suggest you house the steps and risers into the strings rather than make a lower cut string. Although a little more complicated its well worth the extra effort to build a real professional stair that will be stronger and longer lasting as well as more elegant.

If you are OK with the design send me the thickness you’ll be using for the risers and I’ll send you the working documents tomorrow.

All the best,

Ness

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per birger movik
June 26, 2014
7:23 pm
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Ness

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Per Birger’s reply :

Youre correct. The lower staircase is definitely in the way. I have limited the top section of the stair because I didn’t want the users to hit their head. However, most users head is located in the middle not on the right hand side go their body. This means we should go for the L = 1140 alternative if this does not put the head of the trespasser in jeopardy. Pls consider the limited ceiling height as the limiting factor. In addition, we planned to turn the lower stair more towards SS side of the boat. 

 
As for the stringer, I agree for an open stair. However, I would prefer a closed stair. Here, again, I will need to pull on your experience. The question is if this design allow closed steps, considering the small steps? The reason why is that the closed solution will hide the junk that obviously will pile up under the stair. In the case of a closed stair, the stringer/fake stringer concept may not be as awkward. Still, I respect your opinion and will go for the recessed steps alternative. I do possess a router. Not used to it yet.
 
My next project is a cupboard/bar area. I purchased a «Chesterfield» lookalike cushion from an abandoned nearby pub. The idea is to build in the furniture into the boats interior.
 
Hope you have the opportunity to help me out here with the stairs first :-)
 
regards
June 26, 2014
7:20 pm
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Ness

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Hello everyone , I’m opening this thread because Per Birger,  has been building a boat and with our StairFile service I’m helping him design a small stair for the cabine.

Thinking that this is a great little project I’m jumping on the occasion to show off his boat and how our service works.

Here’s Per Birger’s first email with the pictures of his boat:

**********************************

I have attached a couple of photos for you to see a) the ship and b) theres one pic where the entrance to the below deck compartments is visible. Actually one can spot the temporary ladder (red) is right where the stair is meant to be set up (the drawings are all seen from below).
I don’t have any photos of the interior – yet.
I and my father in law have, with other helpers, rebuilt the ship that were originally built at our beach at Teiga. Ships maiden name is M/S Teigevik.
I have tried to sketch the stair I have in mind. The main difference between what I am looking for and a regular stair is probably the space available.
Thats why I have elected the L shape – just to have available more steps. The height below is less than 200cm. The measurements, also indicated on the drawing is; Total height 159cm, width of steps 52cm and footprint of long part of the L is 102cm and the short is 86cm. 
 
I have attached something I have created in SketchUp. At least it shows the basic shape. However, this is a wooden ship and the shapes should be anything but straight angels. That means I have to do some freehand work to shape up the stairs as I am not able to do that with my rather limited knowledge of CAD. 
 
Regards 
Per Birger Møvik
 
*********************************
 
 
DSC_0355.JPGImage Enlarger
DSC_0908.JPGImage Enlarger
Here’s Per Birger’s first design and my suggestions sent today:
********************************
For your design I have found a small problem concerning the stair rising up from the lower floor.
It seems that according to the dimensions sent previously, the left hand start of the stair design you sent me is not clear of the lower stair well.
I have made a SketchUp model to illustrate:
orig-project.jpgImage Enlarger
One solution to this could be to to extend the 2nd flight like this:
project-02.jpgImage Enlarger
This will make a stair that’s easier to use but I’m not sure from your information if this is possible.
Another solutions would be to put the first step at an angle like this:
 
project-03.jpgImage Enlarger
 
This gives a stair that takes less room but is steeper .

On the question of stringer I would suggest that if possible you recess the steps into a solid string.
This is in fact not only stronger and giving a more aesthetic result, but is also easier to make if you have a router.
To rout the housings use the router jig that can make using the PDF document downloadable from the members area.
If you don’t own a router I would suggest you rent one just for the day you need it.
Cutting false stringers will take just as much time and the finished stair will always be less professional.

Whatever route you choose,  you’ll  have to house the steps into the post.

If you want to start building this week end please get back to me quickly so that I can set up your working documents.

All the best,
Ness

 
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