Avatar
Search
Forum Scope


Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_TopicIcon
Design Questions: additional newel posts and straight tread
Avatar
Andrew Krawiec

Forum Posts: 34
Subscriber Since:
April 10, 2016
Thanked 0 times in 34 posts
Reputation: 175
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
43
March 21, 2017 - 5:37 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Michel

I am unable to open the file. It says it was created by a more recent version.

I have good reasons for doing it the way I want to do it. It bolts onto the stringers which are thicker members and it encloses the bottom of the newel which adds stability.The side of the stair is not visible as it is by the wall on one side and behind the return joist on the other.

In the version I sent you, Staircase-La-Brizaude-21.03.2017AK.stair, I am not sure if the length of the flight is correct or not. It is now 2269 which is the same as it was in my V03. Is step 15 width the same as the width of all the other non-kite steps?

If so, then the only problem remaining would be the strange arrangement around the top newel post.

I really think you need to show me how to remove step 16 from the equation please.

cheers

Andy

Avatar
michel melon
Belgium

Forum Posts: 473
Subscriber Since:
August 7, 2014
Thanked 127 times in 473 posts
Reputation: 5546
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
42
March 21, 2017 - 5:31 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory

Hi Andy

look at the last version I send you please 

regards

Michel

Avatar
Andrew Krawiec

Forum Posts: 34
Subscriber Since:
April 10, 2016
Thanked 0 times in 34 posts
Reputation: 175
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
41
March 21, 2017 - 5:27 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Michel,

OK I have redone the changes to the stringers to bring everything into line but it has done something strange to step 15 around the newel post. I suspect it is something to do with step 16 the landing step. Perhaps it thinks it has to move the newel post by 30mm as the nosing will hit it….It was Ness who added it. Perhaps you could ask him how to get rid of it completely and then perhaps it will not influence the shape of step 15

Cheers

Andy

Avatar
michel melon
Belgium

Forum Posts: 473
Subscriber Since:
August 7, 2014
Thanked 127 times in 473 posts
Reputation: 5546
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
40
March 21, 2017 - 5:22 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Andy 

here it is again. Yes I used your version 3. About you wanting to bolt a plate on the back of the stair. If I was doing this I would let the stringer and the post stick out 30mm so that the plate falls in between. This way you would never notice that plate when you look from the side of the stair.

regards

Michel

Avatar
Andrew Krawiec

Forum Posts: 34
Subscriber Since:
April 10, 2016
Thanked 0 times in 34 posts
Reputation: 175
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
39
March 21, 2017 - 5:00 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Michel,

I see what you have done. But I went to some trouble to set up the end of step 15 and the end of the Left stringer and the newel post all on the same line with a view to bolting a 30mm plate to them. Now there is an extension to the stringer and the newel post is out again. Did you take my V03 as you starting point?

We can talk about Draftsight which I have once the length of the 2 upper stringers and the width of tread 15 is sorted out

Cheers

Andy

Avatar
michel melon
Belgium

Forum Posts: 473
Subscriber Since:
August 7, 2014
Thanked 127 times in 473 posts
Reputation: 5546
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
38
March 21, 2017 - 4:27 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Andy

the cause is that the last step which thickness was set to 0. Also the nosing was set to 0. I put it back on 30mm so all steps are now the same 275,4mm

It seems you do not have any cad program. Via the dxf files you can take any measure or angle you like when you read it in a cad program. You can download the free version of draftsight in the support centre.

Take a look a let me know if any further questions. 

regards

Michel

Avatar
Andrew Krawiec

Forum Posts: 34
Subscriber Since:
April 10, 2016
Thanked 0 times in 34 posts
Reputation: 175
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
37
March 21, 2017 - 2:58 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Ness,

Thanks for those documents.

There is a problem with step 15. It may be related to step 16 which I do not want but was unable to totally eradicate, even following your tip.

It was not obvious from looking at the piece in stair designer but step 15 has only got a width(going) of 245.4mm as opposed to the ‘normal’ width of 275.4mm. This is obviously to do with my shortening the whole of Flight #2 by 30mm in order to accommodate the 30mm thick endplate that I want to bolt to the end of the stair for fixing to and covering the joist.

I still want to have a tread of 275.4mm wide as the last step before the landing and I assumed that stair designer would prorate the reduction in length across all steps.

I doesn’t look like that happened for some reason. And so now, I’m unable to trust the length of the flight 2 stringers.

It is good to see some measurements. But I must say it would help to see the length of the diagonal sides too. After all, I need to know how long to cut the timber for a stringer, not just how much travel there is horizontally.

I addition, marking out will be hard without knowing the angles or even how far the top edge of the stringer projects beyond the end of the lower edge or vice versa. Any help with these thing?

I can now back calculate the length of the mortices to receive the steps in the stringers, but how do I know how to position them as there are no measurements for them.

How can I tell how long the mortices in the posts to receive the steps are to be, or how high to place them? Do I have to take the step height( I assume top of step, take off the 5mm shoulder and that is the height of the top of the mortice? These measurements would be useful.

Can you explain why the straight stringers are not exactly 300mm wide in the cutting list. Is it because the corners of the 50mm tenons move the total width upwards. It seems to me to be safe to just cut those corners and stick with the 300mm width.

Just to take one example, right stringboard #1, here I am missing angles, lengths of diagonals, start and end points of the full mortice, lengths of the mortices which are not full length.

I know that the mortices are at 90 degrees to the shoulders that butt up to the posts and I know that the tops are 189.3mm(riser height above each other, and I can probably calculate taking into account the nosing, the tread width and the offset to start of tenon on the step how far they should be apart from one another. But this is a lot of calculating. Lots of opportunities for error.

Am I missing something?

Cheers

Andy

Avatar
Ness

Forum Posts: 1918
Subscriber Since:
October 4, 2012
Thanked 545 times in 1918 posts
Reputation: 23223
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
36
March 20, 2017 - 4:37 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Andy,

Michel has asked me to post the files for your stair.

All the best,

Ness

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
Andrew Krawiec

Forum Posts: 34
Subscriber Since:
April 10, 2016
Thanked 0 times in 34 posts
Reputation: 175
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
35
March 17, 2017 - 6:03 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Michel.

I have changed step 1 in line with your suggestions and added 5mm recesses front and back to cover any messy work when routing. The reason I didn’t do it on stair 5 to start with is that there is not a lot of wood supporting the tread in the first place. I don’t yet have the measurements but it doesn’t look like a lot.

If you made no other changes to my version 2 design, then I would like to go with the version 3 that I am attaching.

Cheers

Andy

Avatar
michel melon
Belgium

Forum Posts: 473
Subscriber Since:
August 7, 2014
Thanked 127 times in 473 posts
Reputation: 5546
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
34
March 17, 2017 - 5:03 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Andy,

Looks ok to me . Only the first step you forgot to recess the front in the newel . You can do this by selecting the link to the newel post and enter 20 mm front recess. This to avoid a possible gap there if you work bij hand and a router . You could perhaps do the same on step 5 as there you did not recess anything on the corner newel side. 

Look at this and choose from which one you want the cutting list 

regards

Michel

Avatar
Andrew Krawiec

Forum Posts: 34
Subscriber Since:
April 10, 2016
Thanked 0 times in 34 posts
Reputation: 175
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
33
March 17, 2017 - 1:03 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Michel

I have restored penetration of newel posts by all the relevant steps and gone through all components till I am satisfied with them. I offset the tenons which meet in a post by a certain amount to bring them higher or lower (posts 1 and 4. Post 2 has stringers arriving at different heights anyway). I have done this even though I am not convinced it will help much. It is by cutting the fibres across the grain that the wood is weakened most, and that has already happened as soon as you cut out the long mortice.

One good thing is that most of the pressure is downwards where there is plenty of wood, and if I can do the joints nice and tight, then there will be wood there from the joining members to add support. I did reduce the tenon thickness to 25mm from 30mm but I kept the tenon penetration at 50mm for reasons i explained earlier.

Anyway, I have attached the latest design. By all means check that there are no glaring errors or impossible joints and if it looks OK to you then please generate the cutting list. I am keen to see the measurements so I can check that all the joints will be sound and strong.

Thanks a lot

Andy

Avatar
michel melon
Belgium

Forum Posts: 473
Subscriber Since:
August 7, 2014
Thanked 127 times in 473 posts
Reputation: 5546
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
32
March 15, 2017 - 6:41 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Andy

step penetration in posts :

This is what I would do if I was using the same way of building like you  intend to. You can remove it from post 1 and 4 but I advise you to keep post penetration in post 2 ( 120/120 ) and post 3 ( first step) . Main part of the steps are in te post and to have a stable step you have to penetrate it in the newel. This is the best option. I do not advise to only bolt them from the back or using dowels. It is also for safety reason that you have to do this. 

for post 3 a significant part of the step is not supported in the post and can cause damaged over time when you step on it . I would also not bolt it through the post. This step is not that difficult to make so I would not disregard it and just do it properly. 

50mm penetration stringer tenons is ok . I only advised it on post 1 and 4 but 50mm is tolerable. As you could see in the drawing the tenons face eachother and there is not mutch material in the post left between them. As they do almost align the structure of the post is weakened but not in a way it would be a problem but I would avoid it to keep a strong structural post.

regards

Michel

Avatar
Andrew Krawiec

Forum Posts: 34
Subscriber Since:
April 10, 2016
Thanked 0 times in 34 posts
Reputation: 175
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
31
March 15, 2017 - 10:06 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Michel,

I think I did say that I wanted to keep the stair as wide as possible, given the constraints. The reason is that 740mm of tread is already not very much for a main stairway.

I see that you have offset the handrail with reference to the stringer and that, as the banisters are centred on the handrail, they stick out of the side of the stringer. It looks like I will have to manually adjust there.

Could you please confirm that what you have done on the treads is to reengage them with all the newel posts. Yes, that is why I simply cut around those newels where I judged there was already enough support from the stringers. Making those cuts, especially with shoulders all round, will be more work, as you say.

Why did you do this? Is there some structural reason why the treads should engage with the newels? It would be good to know why it is imperative before settling on this solution.

The reason for having 50mm tenons on the stringers is that when using draw pins, there needs to be a bit of ‘meat’ in the tenon to prevent the end breaking out, for the pin to push against so that it effectively draws the tenon inside and forces the shoulders to rest against the sides of the post. Conversely, there must also be enough ‘meat’ between the holes for the pin and the wall of the post for it to resist and bend the pin without the wood breaking out. A weak pin of 6 or 7mm width will not bring the tenon in. A more sturdy one of 13-15mm will. But it needs support.

If I reduce the penetration to 40mm, then I don’t get that ‘meat’. I might as well reduce it to 30mm bolt.

That is the reason that I made the posts, not 90mm, but 110 and 120mm square. I could reduce the thickness of the tenon to 25mm perhaps…

If you could come back with answers to these questions, I think I could make some decisions and we might try for a first cut of the list of cutting materials so I can review it.

Get back to me and I will do ‘my’ final version so you can generate it.

Cheers

Andy

Avatar
michel melon
Belgium

Forum Posts: 473
Subscriber Since:
August 7, 2014
Thanked 127 times in 473 posts
Reputation: 5546
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
30
March 15, 2017 - 8:05 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Andy

you go to the 3d view and select  the handrail . There you can offset the handrail but banisters will follow the handrail. If you do not want this you have to do it manualy on the build. I got no reply from you regarding making flight2 between 30 and 50 smaller so that you keep a centered handrail and have enough clearance. 

Be carefull on the the stringer tenons that you do not go to deep. It can weaken the internal structure of the post 1 and 4 . Tenons are almost at the same height and there is not  a lot of material left between the tenons. I would make them there max 40mm deep. 

The 50 mm on the handrail is how large the handrail is and the width is the heigt of the handrail material. You  can paly with it in the 3d view. Select the handrail and change the values and it will become clear to you.

About the winder steps. I did some changes. That is how I woul do it in your case. It is a bit more work but at the end it is the result that counts. 

regards

Michel

Avatar
Andrew Krawiec

Forum Posts: 34
Subscriber Since:
April 10, 2016
Thanked 0 times in 34 posts
Reputation: 175
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
29
March 14, 2017 - 1:41 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Michel,

Yes, thank you for your help on this. In the meantime, I have done some work on the stair.

I have shortened the whole of flight #2 by 30 mm to accommodate a 30mm plate to be bolted to the ends of the stringers and to the face plate at the top.

I have removed tread joints to the newel posts where I think I do not absolutely need the support. This simplifies the cuts.

I have changed the stringer tenon penetration back  to 50mm. I am comfortable with chopping the mortices out and that some draw pins will provide good support. If I find them at all loose I can still drill and screw from behind if I can get there from behind the big kite steps.

Tread penetration at 20mm.

The more complicated steps are 1, 3,4,5,6 and 15. It might be worth you having a look.

It appears to me that the software will not allow the handrail to be offset with reference to the newel posts. It is always fixed with reference to the stringer to which it is connected by the banisters. Is that true?

As I told you, I have to move the handrail away from the wall for most of flight #2 as there is currently only 15mm clearance from the stringer which is not enough. Could you confirm that the thickness of the handrail is actually the depth and that it is currently set at 50mm and the width is 40mm. If that is so, I have 22.5mm of clearance between handrail and wall. Still not enough. I would like to move the handrail and its joins with the 2 newels and the stringer(by virtue of the bannisters) into the staircase by 7.5mm.

Please tell me if the software cannot do it so I don’t spend any more time on it. And I will think how to compensate manually.

Cheers

Andy

Avatar
Ness

Forum Posts: 1918
Subscriber Since:
October 4, 2012
Thanked 545 times in 1918 posts
Reputation: 23223
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
28
March 14, 2017 - 7:31 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Everyone,

I’d like to thank to Michel for looking at Andrews stair he’s really done a great job!

Just a quick tip, to eliminate a step set the thickness to “0” and it’s link to string to “recess” with “0” value too.

all the best,

Ness

Avatar
Andrew Krawiec

Forum Posts: 34
Subscriber Since:
April 10, 2016
Thanked 0 times in 34 posts
Reputation: 175
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
27
March 13, 2017 - 9:08 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Michel.

Yes, step 6.

OK, I am going to spend the morning trying to get the design the way I want it, incorporating these ideas, and I will send it to you tomorrow afternoon. If you could check it, that it works and that it can be installed, I would be grateful. CAD we can do later if it is required.

Cheers

Andy

Avatar
michel melon
Belgium

Forum Posts: 473
Subscriber Since:
August 7, 2014
Thanked 127 times in 473 posts
Reputation: 5546
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
26
March 13, 2017 - 8:51 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Andy 

The changes you request on the top step and riser can be done in a cad program. Stairdesigner cannot only put a riser without a step. Once the stair is correct on dimensions the changes can be done in a cad program. I can assist you on that once you have the files.

About the handrail clearance. This is why I mentioned to take a smaller flight width to keep a nice centered handrail and create enough clearance. If you do not want to make it smaller then the only option you have is offset the handrail and banisters. What kind of handrail and banisters are you going to use ? The best solution is to make the flight smaller.

I guess you mean step 6 as step 7 is completely in flight 2 and to do so you would have to lengthen the first flight. To my experience it will not become a big issue when installing. The step penetration is 15mm so it is better to have the same lateral recess on the stringer tenons. This way by slightly tilting the first flight it will be no problem to slide the second flight over the step into the tenon holes of the first flight.

regards

Michel

The following users say thank you to michel melon for this useful post:

Ness
Avatar
Andrew Krawiec

Forum Posts: 34
Subscriber Since:
April 10, 2016
Thanked 0 times in 34 posts
Reputation: 175
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
25
March 13, 2017 - 5:35 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Michel,

OK let’s say 20mm for the tread stringer penetration.

How I had envisaged attaching flight #2 to the face plate at the stair head was like this: I would like to shorten the available length from 3149mm to 3119mm so that I can bolt on a riser of 30mm thickness that can be in turn bolted to the face plate. This means that it may be necessary to cut off some of the 2 stringers at a height of 3029mm minus 21mm for the floor so that the string will sit up against the overlapping floor above. Can this be done in Stairdesigner? Is it possible to keep in stairdesigner a riser (without the following tread) of 30mm thickness and width which goes down to the bottom of the string width as it hits the face plate? Can that be done? Really I would like a piece of wood 30mm thick and 850mm long which is as wide as the stringers are when they hit the stairhead. That is what is ideal. If it is difficult to design then I can shorten the run by 30mm and just remember that I have to attach this plate at the end. It will have knockon effects on Newel post 5. Not sure what effects just yet.

As far as that is concerned, I think the handrail has to be offset otherwise it will be too close to the wall for people to use it for the first 2 or 3 metres. It means it has to enter newel post 5 at an offset, and newel post 2 at an offset but not so much that he thinnest member, at 55mm, right stringboard #2, cannot accept the spindles Currently with stair width of 850mm there is only about 15mm clearance between the right stringer and the wall. If we were to centre the handrail over the stringer then we would have only 2.5mm(half the difference between 55mm and 50mm ) plus the 15mm, so  only 17.5mm clearance between handrail and wall. This is obviously not acceptable for use so we need to gain another 15mm or so to get a clearance of 32.5mm for people’s hands to pass behind the handrail. This will the spindle will enter 10mm from the inside edege of the stringer which I think is OK. I am not sure if I can do this in Stairdesigner.

The other matter for concern is step #7. I do not want it penetrating the flight#2 stringers at all as it will interfere with installation.

If you remember, I plan to build the stair in 2 parts for ease of installation. That is why I wanted newel post #4. Is it possible to play with the recess variables to prevent stair#7 from penetrating the flight 2 stringers?

Sorry there are more questions.But better now that after I start cutting.

cheers

Andy

Avatar
michel melon
Belgium

Forum Posts: 473
Subscriber Since:
August 7, 2014
Thanked 127 times in 473 posts
Reputation: 5546
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
24
March 13, 2017 - 4:03 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Andrew

If you do a lateral move on newel 5 you will not have a centered handrail. Mostly the width of the stair is adjusted to allow the post to enter the stairwell. That way you keep the handrail centered on the post but if you need it that way then ok for me. I am just informing you.

steps: 15mm is enough to make a strong assembly. You do not need 30mm. It is not a case of weakening the stringer but it is just not needed to go that deep and makes your work faster as you remove less material . Also on the build side it helps not having a too deep penetration in the stringer especially on turning steps. I personally use a depth of 10 mm for my steps on stringers of 35 mm.

If you prefer 20mm there is no problem doing this.

I would not pegg tenons in the stringer. You can do that for aesthetic reasons but there is a lot of stress on these connections. If you use tenons i would bolt them from the backside of the newel through the tenons so that the newel is firmly pressed against the stringer. The 12.5mm is the lateral recess on the stringer tenons. It is not a value I am using so I supposed you entered it but you can choose another value if you like. 12.5 mm is ok for me there.

Handrail between 850 and 900 is ok . You can choose . I personaly use 850 on my stairs.

I have changed the measurement on flight 2. I cannot remove the last step but your tread width is now ok . You will have to do the change in a cad program to remove that last step and replace it by the floor that will become your landing. The top newel can be notched so that it will rest on the floor to keep the stair leveled and supported and you can bolt it on the plate joist 

Let me know if this is now ok 

regards

Michel

Forum Timezone: Europe/London
Most Users Ever Online: 256
Currently Online: Cade G, John Yarborough
Guest(s) 1
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
terry: 253
mark nichols: 140
Tom Cleaver: 107
jimbouk: 105
Christopher Paré: 97
syslab: 97
Duayne Naugle: 89
Conor Devoy: 78
Jack Travis: 77
Kerf Works: 75
Newest Members:
Alejandra Aguilar
Wout Franssen
John Yarborough
Elizabeth Ramsey
Elio Aliu
Dane Gogić
Marko Kocic
nabil alami
nabil alami
NICOLAS PUCHETA
Forum Stats:
Groups: 2
Forums: 8
Topics: 1363
Posts: 7634

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 4
Members: 118676
Moderators: 0
Admins: 7
Administrators: Ness, Stefan, michel melon, Carole Bosy, Alex, admin, ipatrick