Extension of an existing stairs|Page 3|Forum|WOOD DESIGNER

Avatar
Search
Forum Scope


Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed sp_TopicIcon
Extension of an existing stairs
Avatar
Michel

Forum Posts: 984
Subscriber Since:
August 7, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
37
May 30, 2019 - 2:38 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory

Hi Daniel ,

1)Yes this is my intention. This is firmly securing the newel on the stringboard and make it strong for lateral pressure. Also, it keeps the stair on the ideal height as it is on top of the finished flooring. The riser is irrelevant here. You fix the stair via de stringboards. I really recommend you work this way.

2) Nanocad is a good alternative to autocad as it is based on autocad workings. Here is a link with some explanations and you can find tutorials on YouTube but if you know autocad then you just can start with nanocad. Free version is nanocad 5.

I use frame joining screws to fix stairs in brick walls. Mostly is use the 112 mm length version diameter 7,5mm. You just need to drill through the stringer and wall with a drill of 6mm diameter and directly screw the frame joining screw without any plug in the wall. I would use around 4 pieces in each stringer. First pre-drill a bigger hole 1 cm deep to allow closing of with wood-plugs when done.

frame-joining-screw.jpgImage Enlarger

Regards

Michel

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
Guest
36
May 30, 2019 - 12:44 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Michel,

1. What I said is “There is a 15mm gap between the last riser and the existing beam”. The left stringboard is flushed to the beam while the right one is connected to the newel post, which you also noticed is not in the best position. Putting it half on the stair and half on the floor does not seem to solve the connection of the right stringer, which will be still into the newel post – is that your intention?

2. Happy to hear the intended extensions are fine. As for the CAD program, I might give a try to nanoCAD despite the fact that I’m more familiar with Autocad. A suggestion for the site: might want to look into suggesting other free CAD software as both SketchUp and DraftSight latest versions are not very friendly with non-commercial users. That might become an issue for the amateur users of SD…

3. I’m still struggling to find the best approach but I guess we’ll find a way. I might be able to still make the connection from the picture by shifting flight 2 along the upper beams (using those 500mm I was thinking to close) and only after the connection of the 2 flights to bring it back in position and lock flight 1 into the lower beams smile

Something I forgot to ask: what do you use to fix the stringboards on the walls? In my case the walls are brick cladding

I’ll review the whole stair and pass it through you for the final check, to make sure we have all the connecting elements in place.

Best regards,

Daniel

Avatar
Michel

Forum Posts: 984
Subscriber Since:
August 7, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
35
May 30, 2019 - 10:05 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory

Hi Daniel,

1) This is the riser and not the stringboard. Your stringboard is flush on the beam. This is your connection point and not the riser.

About the post 2 I did not check on it but it is not the best position you have set it. I would suggest putting it half on the stair and half on the floor. This ensures a good connection with the stringer and supports the stair on the floor.

daniel-post2-1.jpgImage Enlarger

SD is not making this cutout. This is something you have to do.

Also, the same should be done for the balustrade newels as I showed you in the pictures of the stairs I made. This permits making a finish on the stairwell side. Depending of the needed finishing the newel extends only a few centimeters or the complete stairwell side.

daniel-balustrade-newels.jpgImage Enlarger

As you can see the lower rail shoots over the stairwell and permits adding a finishing plint against the side which hides the underfloor and floor side.

2) This looks fine to me. You can download the free version of nanocad which is very similar to autocad. I tried it myself and for 2D use it is working well. Here is a screen-shot and I worked on your left stringer as example.

nanoCAD-5-1.jpgImage Enlarger

3) I would say in your case first put flight 1 in place as it get locked on your beam connections which ensure a stable position. Then from the upper floor lower the second flight (which you assembled there) to connect with the first flight. Allow some space on the wall side if possible to make the connection easier. Fix the second flight on the corner newel with 2 long screws and fix the wall stringboards with a short screw on top and slanted in the left stringboard of flight 1 and 1 bottom side to pull them together.

Build flight one until step 8 and corner newel. Build flight 2 until step 9 without the riser of step9. This one can only be added after the connection. The connection on your picture are an existing way of connecting the stringboards but the stair needs to be retracted after the first connection on the corner newel to be able to reach behind the stringboards but your first flight is locking into the beams so there is no shifting of the stair possible.

Regards

Michel

Avatar
Guest
34
May 30, 2019 - 8:30 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Michel,

I was checking more closely the SketchUp file and would like to check with you couple of things:

1. There is a 15mm gap between the last riser and the existing beam. That would be OK as allowing some flexibility but I’m concerned it makes connectivity of the stair elements in the upper part more complicated. I’m wondering if is not better to have the stringers flushed to the beam instead of allowing such space. It also make the connection of the Newel Post #2 a bit strange, where I would rather prefer to have it siting on the beam (actually valid for #3 as well). What do you think we should do?

15mm-gap.png

Newel-post-2.png

2. I sketched the extensions of the 2 stringers so you can visualize what I have in mind. I will sit the right one on a metal wood connector and screw it into the beam. The left one will be siting on the beam and screwed into it. What do you think about this approach? Any other suggestions are welcome (BTW, as the CAD program you suggested seems to start imposing limitations for free usage, I might as well look for Autocad, with similar limitations for free usage but easier to use from my perspective)

Left-stringer-extension.png

Right-stringer-extension.png

3. I’m still puzzled about how to make the connection between the stringers in the far away corner. It might not be possible to fully assemble the 2 flights due to the height. Any ideas how they could come together?

Stringers-connection.png

I believe we only need to fine tune couple of details and then we can consider the stair complete.

Best regards,

Daniel

Avatar
Guest
33
May 29, 2019 - 4:26 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Michel,

1. Space is never enough smilebut you are right, is a big hassle to create the support for that 0.5sqm gain

2. Actually the newels are already in place. What needs to happen is to connect Newel Post #6 with Newel Post #1 and remove Newel Post #3. Might be too tricky for SD so, for manufacturing purpose only I guess is easier to make the handrail and banisters as for the hand rail#3 and mount it in between newel posts #6 and #1. I abandoned the idea of creating the “L” shape opening but still curious if the connections I mentioned can be handled by SD

3. I have no intention to handle it alone but even for a larger team seems quite a heavy lifting task. Space is not much of a constrain as the upper floor is empty and on the base the is some room for maneuvers. The issue is the new stair is above the existing one, making much harder to reach to the far corner, which could imply pre-assembling in full. I need to do some more thinking as now it seems the easier would be to assemble in the attic and lower it through the stair opening (obviously without bannisters and handrails)

4. I was actually wondering if one or the other ways of connecting the steps gives some advantages (long term, structurally). From the perspective of the screws, going through the stringboards might imply in my situation (with different size of stringboards) either pre-drilling with different depth or us of longer screws for the right side

5-9. Some pictures would be very useful to visualize. Also, what exactly you consider ” the back of the rail”? I’m not sure if the option SD offers for bannisters (penetration) is the same with the tenons you have in mind. Could you please check if the connections are set as you would normally do?

The construction is in Bucharest, Romania. Not sure there are many chances you know someone here so I’m not excluding (for now) the EU shipping

Best regards,

Daniel

Avatar
Michel

Forum Posts: 984
Subscriber Since:
August 7, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
32
May 29, 2019 - 7:21 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Daniel,

1) To my opinion an L-shaped opening is not worth the change in your case. Also, making an L-shaped stairwell with a wooden beam construction will create a weak point in the L-shape corner that needs to get supported in some way. To me it is not worth the gain as we speak about roughly 50cm. If you have sufficient space on the top floor, I would not change the design.

2) In such case you would have to follow the shape and add newels on the corner spots which means 2 additional newels.

3) You cannot lift the stair into place alone. You need to be 3 persons to handle the flights. Stairs are build in flights and assembled on site this way. If the space allows it you can even assemble the stair and afterwards lift it into place but that can become heavy lifting indeed. So 9 out 10 stairs are pre-assembled in flights with attention to the best possible way to connect them. I told you in the earlier message how the flights needs to be build.

4) On the wall side which remains invisible it is always through the stringboard. On the visible side it can be the same but with woodplugs and sanding to get a clean finish or indeed from the inside slanted in the steps. I manage to use the same screw length but you have to be careful that you are not going to screw through the whole stringboard.

5) I do not know that product. I am using a polymer based glue kit like FixAll from Soudal. This is a high performance glue kit and remains flexible.

6) Newels are set in position with the tenons on the stringers. With the screws I used I pre-drill a whole around 2 cm deep and then drill through with a smaller drill. The small drill needs to have at least the diameter of the screw as the newel needs to be screwed firmly against the stringboard. Same for the steps. Pre-drill and then fix the steps. For the newels I use 2 screw divided according to the available space to have a firm connection with the stringboards.

7) I always make a tenon connection on my banisters. This is the strongest possible connection. In the lower rail which sits on the floor I use glue on the tenons and screws from the back of the rail to firmly pull them against the rail. On the handrail side I use glue on the tenons and use a small nail gun to fix the handrail. 

8) Handrails see (7) and connection on the newel is also pre-drilled through the newel and screw to firmly pull the handrail against the newel. Finish with woodplugs.

9) connecting with screws is here also the best way to do. Angled through the stringboard into the beams. This will be covered with the floor later on. On the top side you can screw through the back of the beam on which the stair sits on.

What is your location so that we can check if we have someone who can help you.

Regards

Michel 

Avatar
Guest
31
May 29, 2019 - 5:07 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Forgot to add the SD file

Avatar
Guest
30
May 29, 2019 - 4:04 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Michel,

I believe we clarified the previous points

When I started the stair project I was taking into account that I will have a rectangular opening above it, equal to the width of the stair. Along the way it became clear that I will need a wider opening to allow sufficient headspace above Flight#1. An alternative would be to change to an “L” shape opening, that implying some changes on the stair as well. Two questions:

1. From your experience, would an “L” shape opening be a sufficiently common approach to worth the trouble of building it?

2. How could we close the opening in that situation? Basically we move some newels and bannisters – I couldn’t go further in SD

Alternative.png

Regarding the details on assembling the stair there are few points I’m trying to visualize:

3. If I correctly understood, you are first mounting the entire staircase then fix in position (connection between the stringboards in the outer corner is from the wall side) – sounds like a heavy lifting operation but perhaps I’m wrong. For practical reasons I was thinking of a way to assemble it starting from the left stringers (but I never installed a stair smile)

4. Connecting the steps – How is that done, from the sides, through stringers or slanted from below the steps into the stringer? The size of the screws is determined by how the connection is made

5. Connecting the risers – For the underfloor fixing to the beams, also to avoid squeaking later on, I’m using Sika Sikaflex 11 FC+, a polyurethane base flexible adhesive (and Alsafix screws type VBF 6×60 TX30, which I believe are very similar if not identical with the ones you use) hence thinking to use the same. Any other suggestions are more than welcome. As for the connection with the back of the steps, I’m inclined to use screws even if the back will remain visible as nails might get loose in time (the old stair uses nails and squeaks a lot). Would those be too visible requiring some kind of masking? (such as with wood plugs, for example)

VBF-6x60-TX30.jpg

6. Connecting the newel posts – How is that done? A picture or sketch would help

7. Bannisters – are they only glued and relying on protrusions into handrail & stringboards?

8. Handrails – I assume a glue & screw approach, could you please detail

9. Connecting to the beams (top and bottom) – any suggestions?

Does it happen to know a workshop which could process the parts, pack and ship?

Best regards,

Daniel

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
Michel

Forum Posts: 984
Subscriber Since:
August 7, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
29
May 28, 2019 - 3:35 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Daniel 

I send you the file via email to upgrade to sd7.11.

Regards

Michel 

Avatar
Guest
28
May 28, 2019 - 3:09 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Michel,

I’m having troubles opening the SD file:

Error.png

Seems you have a newer version than 7.10g smile

Daniel

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Forum Timezone: Europe/London
Most Users Ever Online: 256
Currently Online:
Guest(s) 34
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
Tom Cleaver: 162
mark nichols: 160
brendan kavanagh: 136
Conor Devoy: 132
Duayne Naugle: 129
Stu Robertson: 104
Zaheer Abbas: 86
Robert Coxhead: 63
Ray: 59
Patrick Maylor: 57
Newest Members:
pg_panel7
hadialnajjar
Isaac
butnariu daniela
Yosi Siboni
dziekan
AKM
Garyh
niharbu
Daniel Jones
Forum Stats:
Groups: 2
Forums: 7
Topics: 2075
Posts: 11386

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 4
Members: 254
Moderators: 0
Admins: 12
Administrators: Ness, Stefan, Michel, Carole, Alex, admin, Laly, ipatrick, Crystal, Fatima, Darren, Isaac