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Extension of an existing stairs
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Daniel Dinu
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June 5, 2019 - 9:42 am
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Dear Ness,

My point was about the misleading file, and I hope you understood it. If I need to print at 1:1 scale it would be easier and faster to do so directly from dxf files. But same applies for you, once the plotter details are set (and I bet they are already set for such work).

The necessity of going through another CAD program implies the need to have one and not fulfilling the “All the manufacturing documents” promise. For 1:1 scale documents it is easier to explain the exception. However, it doesn’t go in the same way for CNC files.

Regards,

Daniel

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Ness

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June 5, 2019 - 7:46 am
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Hi Daniel,

I understand your frustration, but I would just like to point out that we don’t offer the PDF 1:1 print outs because the DXF files can easily be printed as 1:1 templates. Just load them into a CAD program do the page setup that suits and print.

The same goes for CNC files that can be tweaked in CAD and loaded directly into your CAM program that runs the machine.

Best regards,

Ness

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Stefan

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June 4, 2019 - 2:40 pm
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Hi Daniel, I refer you to my previous post, I’m sorry but we cannot offer you the templates free of charge. If you would like to order them, please request these and we’ll send you a payment link. Thanks

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Daniel Dinu
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June 4, 2019 - 11:00 am
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Dear Stefan,

I hope you agree that a false expectation is created by providing an example file which includes even the 1:1 pdf files, alongside with the CNC files. Especially when the first thing you see on the services page is the statement:

Services.png

“All the manufacturing documents” means for a lot of people all you need to manufacture.

Only at the bottom of the page and with significantly smaller font you specify the exclusion of the 1:1 files, which I saw only now. I don not disagree they might require a bit of time to prepare.

I’m not sure what you meant by “Nor in fact are any other CNC files than DXF part by part. Michel has offered these to you as a courtesy.” I did not asked for (nor received) any CNC file, specifically because I’m still looking for a workshop capable to machine the parts. Still, would expect to be part of “All the manufacturing documents”

Best regards,

Daniel

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Stefan

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June 4, 2019 - 9:21 am
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Hi Daniel, Premium Support includes access to the cut list and plan processing service StairFile. This service allows you to use StairDesigner without buying it. Plus you get access to exceptional technical support which I’m glad you’ve been able to access over a period of months.

Details of the StairFile service are provided here: https://wooddesigner.org/stair…..e-service/ and confirm what’s included and what is not.

Unfortunately, the 1:1 templates which take quite a bit of time to produce are not included. Nor in fact are any other CNC files than DXF part by part. Michel has offered these to you as a courtesy.

For information, you are entitled to the output for 1 project each month. You cannot carry this allocation over to subsequent months.

Thank you in advance for your understanding.

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michel melon
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June 4, 2019 - 6:13 am
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Hi Daniel,

1:1 scale templates are not included. You can read this clearly on the website. I gave you the DXF files as you did not request a specific machine format for processing. If you need it I can provide it but the templates are not part of the package.

https://wooddesigner.org/stair…..e-service/

StairFile-Service.jpgImage Enlarger

What you have are sample files on sd7 outputs. It is not advertised that 1:1 scale templates are part of the package. I can understand your point as it is described as a stair-designer project file.

I wil ask about this and revert to you asap.

Regards

Michel.

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Daniel Dinu
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June 4, 2019 - 4:31 am
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Hi Michel,

I find your comment extremely strange, especially that the sample package of the document which are supposedly generated when paying for a premium subscription includes not only 1:1 designs but also documents for specific CNC machines.

I paid so far 120 pounds and requested only 1 package, although I was supposed to have 1/month. Still, what I’m getting is different from what is advertised. I’m sure is a misunderstanding and you will provide an identical package with the one presented as example.

Daniel

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michel melon
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June 3, 2019 - 9:30 pm
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Hi Daniel,

1:1 scale templates are not included in the subscription. It is optional at 60 euro for the complete set. Let me know if you need it.

Regards

Michel

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Daniel Dinu
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June 3, 2019 - 7:08 am
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Thanks Michel,

For sure I will send pictures once is done – now entering the most difficult part, building it!

As I might encounter difficulties to find a workshop able to use the DXF files, are there in the zip file drawings at 1:1 scale (pdf) – to enable printing and cutting?

Best regards,

Daniel

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michel melon
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June 3, 2019 - 6:01 am
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Hi Daniel,

Here are the documents and send some pictures when done. laugh

Regards

Michel

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Daniel Dinu
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June 2, 2019 - 8:00 pm
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Hi Michel,

Considering the headspace, I moved posts 3 & 4 even further, so now step 4 is fully open above (on the tread line) and I believe we’re done (you might want to look if I didn’t accidentally changed something else).

Please prepare the manufacturing documents and make a final import into SketchUp (2017)

Thanks for all the patience and support!

Best regards

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michel melon
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May 31, 2019 - 4:14 pm
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Hi Daniel,

I moved post 3 and 4 32.5mm. I set them back so that it becomes the original position again as you need to be careful with the headroom.

Here is the stair. To me all looks OK

Regards

Michel

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Daniel Dinu
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May 31, 2019 - 3:55 pm
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Hi Michel,

I see now what you meant. However, I do not really have to move posts 3 & 4 forward as is much easier to move the beam (if you remember, the opening is not built and I can place the last beam where I want). Sorry for confusing you (again) with my unusual approach laugh

So, if I correctly understood, all posts are moved now or is it still anyone requiring my attention? Once you confirm one way or the other I’ll have a final look and I thing we’re good to go.

BTW, the picture shows the end of the old stair and what will become the famous post #5, now to be changed with an enlarged version. Post are indeed having caps, that being the reason I left all a bit taller above handrail. 80 years ago everything was manually carved and I might end in a similar situation – funny enough, carving happens to be not only more flexible but also cheaper than machining on CNC (I guess because of the equipment). 

Have a great weekend!

Daniel

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michel melon
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May 31, 2019 - 3:17 pm
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Hi Daniel,

Center of newel 2 is indeed on 2250 which is the correct spot. I shifted post 3 to align with post 2 but then you also need to shift post 3 forward to have the same overlap on the long side of the stairwell and eventually post 4 has to follow as well. This give you a similar view on both sides of the stairwell. See the picture. Red is the stairwell.

2d-view-1.jpgImage Enlarger

To reach the similar view then that picture you added not everything can bed one with the CNC and you need specific tooling.

Handrail mostly done on a spindle moulder machine.

Newel cap looks to me that this is an add-on of a moulded part with a flat top on it. Fairly easy to build but also here the tooling for that specific moulded part is needed.

Newel engravings you can do this wit a router or CNC if you have the tooling available.

Star-shape in the banisters looks to me as a manual carving job.

The stair parts can also be done without CNC if you use 1:1 templates that you can print out and glue on the wood and process the parts with a circular saw, jigsaw and a router with a jig. Takes more time but then you do not need any CNC.

Regards

Michel 

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Daniel Dinu
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May 31, 2019 - 2:05 pm
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Hi Michel,

I am a bit confused.

I adjusted newel 2-3 and 4 to sit half on the floor and half in the stairwell. I had to correct the stairwell sides and not shifting the posts as the stringers used as under-rail would not align otherwise.

Why you need to touch newel 4? Only 2 and 3 have to move to “right”. 

You have to correct post 2 so that it fits around the beam like is showed you in a drawing.

If its center sits at 2250 then is half on the beam and half on the stair. It seems to be already there. Where you thinking at something else?

The first newel looks OK. I have seen this before. I had to change it as now you connect again with the stair so you needed the correct newel. Now you have a connection with the stringer and handrail which creates a better division of the banisters.

The strange division of the bannisters was the reason I was thinking to change. Good to hear is not a strange approach. BTW, will be connected to 2 stringers and 2 handrails smile

SD has not yet the possibility to create tenons on banisters so I create it myself.

If they are not absolutely necessary I will keep what SD delivers. As for the tools, I’m still looking for a workshop so is hard to say what is easier to make smile

What I also did was make the top of the stringers straight. This is much easier ti handle when you make the banisters as they will keep the same length in the same flight and you do not have to deal with the curved side of the stringer. Let me know what you think about this.

Fantastic idea! I think they look great. In fact, and looking at the old stair, they did it the same 80 years ago

My line off work shifted towards service and CNC work specialized on stairs. I do not have my own wood supply. Carpenters are using my service to define, draw and stair advise. They prepare the woodwork according to my plans and I manufacture them with my CNC machine.

The challenge in Romania is a bit reversed. There is reasonably good quality of wood available and quite a lot of CNC machines. However, I couldn’t find yet a workshop which can process large pieces (as for stairs) and most seem to lack the expertise.

As you mentioned about your CNC focus, the stair structure is only the first step. I need to process every single element later on to become similar with the old stair

20190519_113549.jpg

How difficult you think it will be?

Best regards,

Daniel

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michel melon
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May 31, 2019 - 9:25 am
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Hi Daniel,

I adjusted newel 2-3 and 4 to sit half on the floor and half in the stairwell. I had to correct the stairwell sides and not shifting the posts as the stringers used as under-rail would not align otherwise.

You have to correct post 2 so that it fits around the beam like is showed you in a drawing. There you can see you half to cut half of the post until the top of the last step as this is something SD is not creating for the moment. To have the best alignment all posts on the top floor must be set in the same way. Post 3 needs 2 cuts as it is in the corner so basically 1/4 of the newel remains and sits inside the stairwell and the length depends on the finishing you want to provide.

daniel-post2-2.jpgImage Enlarger

I also corrected the first step as it was reaching the edge of the newel which is never a good thing to do. I retracted it 10mm otherwise you would notice a side cut in the newel and have a visual on the step nested in the newel.

The first newel looks OK. I have seen this before. I had to change it as now you connect again with the stair so you needed the correct newel. Now you have a connection with the stringer and handrail which creates a better division of the banisters.

SD has not yet the possibility to create tenons on banisters so I create it myself. I used the handrail DXF and measure the center points of the banisters. This is the center point for the mortising of the handrail. As a tenon size I mostly use a 5mm retraction on the banister width and 10mm on the lateral side.

Be aware that the angled banisters have another dimensions as they become larger due to the angle. This defines the length of your tenons.

This is how I work but you can make them in the same way as SD is creating them as well. It depends on the tools you have available to make them.

banister-tenons-1.jpgImage Enlarger

handrail-1.jpgImage Enlarger

What I also did was make the top of the stringers straight. This is much easier ti handle when you make the banisters as they will keep the same length in the same flight and you do not have to deal with the curved side of the stringer. Let me know what you think about this.

My line off work shifted towards service and CNC work specialized on stairs. I do not have my own wood supply. Carpenters are using my service to define, draw and stair advise. They prepare the woodwork according to my plans and I manufacture them with my CNC machine.

Regards

Michel

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Daniel Dinu
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May 31, 2019 - 7:30 am
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Hi Michel,

Would it be weird to use at the bottom of the stair a post like this?

Newel-Post-5-variant.png

The benefit being a much smoother connection for the bannisters, both from the old stairs as well as for the new one. I know is fundamentally an aesthetic choice but an opinion of an eye who saw many stairs is always beneficial.

As for the other fine tuning, I decided to sit both Right Stringboards #3 & #4 on the beam (half/half after moving the posts). Newel Posts #2, #3 & #4 were extended so they will protrude the intended ceiling. This approach gives the advantage that I can always cut them shorter if I’m not going to be happy with the finish.

Looking at the bannisters, they don’t look like having the tenons you mentioned. Is there a different setting to be used?

I still couldn’t figure out how to move the Newel Posts #2 & #3 (without damaging the rest of the stair) to make them sit half on the stair and half on the beam. Need your help here and I think that’s basically the last adjustment.

Best regards,

Daniel

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Daniel Dinu
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May 30, 2019 - 7:52 pm
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Hi Michel,

You have to remember that I might be doing things differently than usual as the old stair was done in such way smile

1 & 6. The intention is to follow your advice, having the post siting half on the stringboard and half on the beam. I keep mentioning the beam as I’m always connecting there. I have no intention to chop the beam but I might chop the post (see below)

Newel-post-2-final.png

The post get fixed on the beam, half on the beam and half on the stair, the stringboard is attached to it. Main issue here is that I couldn’t figure it out how to move the Newel Posts #2 & #3 to make them sit half on the stair and half on the beam. Need your help here

Posts #2 & #3 are siting on the same beam so must move together, including the stringboard (which will also it half/half as centered to the posts)

4 & 5. I will sit everything on the beams. The underfloor will cover the eventual small gaps and the floor comes with it’s plint so there will be a nice finish

Regarding the contact for a manufacturing workshop, it’s not mandatory to have it near. Might be more beneficial to work with someone with experience is such works and take on the costs of shipping vs. getting errors in the process. Just a thought – are you not manufacturing?

Best regards,

Daniel

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michel melon
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May 30, 2019 - 5:51 pm
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Hi Daniel,

1) Depends now on your decision in point 6.

2) it will be a minor adjustment only I am sure. I work with bricscad and also autocad long time ago. In a matter of minutes I was working with nanocad. Specific software workings you learn along the way but most basic features are pretty much the same.

3) I like this I was thinking to mention that to you but now you did it yourself. That’s when you feel SD is becoming familiar.

4) That is a choice. When I use stringboards as lower rail I put them on top of the existing floor as I explained you in the earlier messages you can add a coverplint to hide the flooring side in the stairwell. I find it easier to hide with a plint then having to cut all flooring pieces exactly against the lower rail.

5) same as 4. Is a choice

6) Wrong. I told you and send schematics on how it needs to be to ensure a good fix to the stringboard and floor support. It becomes longer because it covers the stringboard width. You can extend even further and cut the beam part out it but I do not see any added value in this. If you really want it only on top of the floor, then there is no reason to change all other newels positions.

You have to make your choice in this one too. It is up to you if you want to be sitting on the beams or the floor. I can tell you that I never did this. Every stair I placed was on top of the finished floor and never below.

We have no specific contact to do this job. I am sure you find someone in the area with a cnc machine to do the job. We provide you all documents and dxf files to proceed.

Regards

Michel

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May 30, 2019 - 4:48 pm
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Hi Michel,

1. Good that we clarified we’re talking about the same thing. HELP! Despite my attempts, I couldn’t figure it out how to move the Newel Posts #2 & #3 to make them sit half on the stair and half on the beam. I’m sure I’m doing something wrong… smile

2. I was using pretty often Autocad at work and that’s always an advantage vs. learning a completely new software. I’ll try nanoCAD, sounds like a useful tool.

I made couple of adjustments to deal with the minor gaps I noticed in the Sketch-up file:

3. Left Stringboard #1 – Lenght beyond the first step increased to 134 (from 50), in this way it is reaching to the other side of the beam, making the CAD extension easier (only downward)

4. Right Stringboards #3 & #4 – Offset changed to 85 (from 90) – to ensure they sit on the underfloor.

5. Newel Posts #3 & #4 – Base Height changed to 3175 – to ensure they sit on the underfloor

6. Newel Post #2 – Not sure what to do about the Base Height. Changed to 3175 as for the following ones but if it should sit half on the stair and half on the beam is getting complicated, and will definitely become longer. Perhaps the best would be to make it passing below the beam, becoming a visual element as well. Any thoughts?

For 4 & 5 I’m wondering if they actually should reach the beam instead of the underfloor. Any thoughts?

Regarding fixing the stringers in the walls, I think I was over doing this by using a chemical anchor and M16 x 190mm rods, washers & nuts. After all, the stair is pretty much self supporting (despite being built in a seismic area)

Any luck in identifying a workshop who can manufacture and ship?

Best regards,

Daniel

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