Wood Designer forum
Extension of an existing stairs|Page 4|Forum|WOOD DESIGNER
Home
August 7, 2014
Offline
Hi Daniel
Hopefully we will get there soon
1-2 ) I was thinking on draftsight as cad program but they do not have any free version anymore. The 2018 versions will stop working after 31-12-2019. The 2019 version gives you a 30 days trial period. So you could use it for your stair.
9) see picture
10) I did the change. It was technical as I had to replace the newel by another type of newel so that there would be no link on the handrail. I cut the handrail halfway the newel post.
12) Stringer corrected. You just need to extend in below the floor level. (cad program)
16) I mean risers are now penetrating the underside of the steps which was not the case before.
All parts can be screwed. For the steps I use screws type 5,0 x70/42. Also, for the connections between stringboards in the outer stair corner. The longer version 5,0 x120/70 is to connect newels with the stringers. All drilled in with wood plugs.
I mainly use a silicone glue to connect risers in the step-notches to avoid squeaking later on. depending on the finishing you can fix the riser on the back of the steps with regular wood glue and a finishing nail gun if this remains visible or screws if not visible. Mainly you build the first and the second flight as 2 different parts. Depending on the situation you can start with the first or the second flight. This is something you have to asses.
First flight build including step 7 and second flight build start from step 8 and also the corner newel included. Bring the flights together and fix them with screws. Fix all stringboards in the walls.
Now you add the handrails.
Regards
Michel
Regards
Michel
Hi Michel,
I think we are pretty close to the final version.
1-2. Still looking forward for your suggestions
6. I dropped the idea of using the artificial landings but will keep the stringboards. I think you’re right, they will make a nice visual. However, I got lost in the offset – my intention was to position them on the underfloor, which should be 21-23mm under the level of the floor – and I’m not sure how accurate I was.
7. Clear, will adjust when cutting the steps
9. I believe they stringboards are now at the edge of 1st and 2nd beams (1940mm and 2580mm away from the wall). Could you please confirm?
10. Clear, see in the SD file the choice, newel post flushed to the stringboard, stringboard reaching the first beam. How can I adjust the handrail to reach to the lateral center of the newel post (now it ends on the edge)?
12. I touched again the right stringer in order to bring it to the beam hence might require your attention. It looks ok from my perspective (but I’m not the expert) 
I’m not particularly keen to touch every detail of the stringboards but if some adjustments will make the production process easier then I have nothing against (any suggestions?). Also extended the newel post even further bellow the floor level – the idea being to have sufficient length to cut at exact length on site (that newel post sits on old stair stringboard)
13. Clear, first riser will require processing in a CAD program
14. Clear, will stop the newel post at the underfloor level (as the stringers). However, I left them a bit longer in the drawing as I got lost in dimensioning there (and is always better to have some extra to cover for errors)
15. Clear, looks good
16. Not sure what you mean about the risers
17. Clear
Now that I believe the file requires only minor adjustments, perhaps we can discuss couple of building details. A guide of mounting the stair in place would be extremely useful, also some advice on connecting elements (screws, nuts & bolts, etc.). Perhaps would be more practical to arrange a skype call?
It would be very handy if you can import the SD file in the SketchUp file I shared some time ago, positioning the last step at 22mm above the underfloor.
Best regards,
Daniel
August 7, 2014
Offline
Hi Daniel,
6)Overall this is a simple stair that needs some attention on existing situations. We should not get lost in details that starts to make it more complex than it needs to be. The landings are a way to define the perimeter of the top floor so that you can build a balustrade on it. I use the stringboards to make the lower rail to fit in the banisters as you can see on the stair-file. Stringboards can also be used as a visual effect to make a finish on the floor thickness (sides of the stairwell). The critical point on a stair is where you start and where you connect to the upper floor.
7) Again this is only a 3D visual. This cannot be merged. If you really want to build no problem. You have then in your cutting list and you merge them together in production.
9 ) The gap needs to be reworked in a cad program. There you can extend it below the floor and create your connection. First you need to put the stringer on the correct spot in SD7 and work from there in CAD.
10 ) The choice is purely aesthetic. I would not choose a newel that sits half on the stringer. In your case I would choose this
12)I adjusted the stringer. You need to go to the view menu and select stringboards. Double click on the stringboard you want to correct and you will be in editing mode. Do this as last change on the stair because every change that impact the stringboard like changing the step angle will reset the stringboard and you will have to do it all over again. The newel is set 100mm below the floor. I guess it needs to be only 21mm. The newel position is correct ( 1060 , 1835 )
13) Indeed, because the stair is calculated between these 2 critical levels. You can start below the floor but this affect the height of your first step.
14) Again this is a choice. Here we do not extend them completely unless the stairwell needs finishing on the side. Newels are then used to fix panels between them to reach an overall finishing. If the stairwell sides are already finished we extend it only a few centimeters (5 to 10 cm) and put a small finishing piece to cover the flooring side. Here some pictures of stairs I made with the different finishing.
15) es. I did it. If you need to do these kinds of corrections you need re-position your step so that the riser is set correctly. If the other steps are not allowed to move then select the step, right click and change it to a floating step. Once done you can double click on it and change his position without affecting the other steps.
16) All is centered. I changed some interconnection parameters. Handrails flush on the newels, stringboards connection and step depth in stringers. Also, the risers were not connected in the steps. Take a look on the stair-file.
17) No problem to change to 50mm. You can change the height of the stair in the main stair view on the property screen, but in your case you first need to bring back the landing step height to 3200. After that you can change it.
Regards
Michel
Hi Michel,
I look closely to the example you shared and here are couple additional points (and more details)
1-2. Looking forward for your suggestions
3. I think I know now how to adjust when required to add multiple landings
6. The idea is to make them small enough to not be perceived as a landing but as a perimeter piece (probably about 120mm, to alow to incorporate nicely the newels) – an aesthetic thing rather than structural. However, I’m not fully convinced it would be a good idea, maybe even overcomplicating things – stringboards could as well serve as perimeter… any thoughts from someone with more experience?
7. Landing 16 and 17 becoming one piece so there is no visual separation. I might need to work on the thickness to align with the future floor though – again, an aesthetic thing.
9. An addition, the reasoning behind reaching with the stringboards to the beams is to make it easier to extend under the floor level and get a “roof type” connection. Right stringboard is still challenging and I believe neither of them is reaching to the beams (the 21mm gap is still there)
10. I got it now how can be adjusted. However, quite hard without dimensions. As on the right side there is the flight of the old stairs, I don’t want to go much around the newel post, maybe not at all. After checking couple of variants I am still undecided between a minimalist one and with one which is pretty much similar with the beginning of the old stairs. Which one would you choose for practical reasons?
12. The base newel post doesn’t look to be in the position it should be, I assume because you intended to have it outside the stair. I understand it might be a bit strange situation but here we need to do things the opposite from usual, modifying the stairs and keep the newel post in exact position (1060mm from the left side, 1835mm from the back wall). I think I managed to move it correctly this time. I do not specifically require to have the stair flight aside, some protruding would be ok as well (visually) but I believe is creating other complications. In the attached file I reduced the size of the flights to 1060mm, so the stringboard should be flushed to the newel post, but right stringboard is still strange and have no idea how to adjust.
Now couple more details to check
13. It seems SD is allowing to extend the newel posts under the floor level – pity is not allowing the same for risers and stringers 
14. At the upper part of the stairs, the newel posts will be visible through the opening. I could basically extend them downwards to the same length (as in the picture) or cut them at the underfloor level. What is in practice the most common approach?
15. Looking a bit more closely at details, it seems there is a strange riser near the turn. Any way to adjust? I’m considering to leave the stairs exposed, not covered as the existing ones (as the wood was finished only on the upper part)
16. Speaking of strange things, the links between stringers, handrails and newel posts are intersecting (protrusions). Is making the protrusion smaller the solution (without impacting the overall connectivity)? Also, Newel post #2 was not centered in your design. I moved it, so both stringers & handrails are connected to its center, but I’m not sure I did it right
17. I took again some of the original measurements and adjusted couple of elements into SD:
– Right stringboards are in fact 65mm – Do you foresee any structural impact in changing both to 50mm?
– Left stringboards are 50mm
– Distance between under floors is actually 3200mm – I cannot change it from 3210mm. Is there a way which not involves starting from scratch?
Once we clarify these things I believe it would be useful to have another import in SketchUp to check everything (as I believe we’re pretty close to finalize)
Best regards,
Daniel
August 7, 2014
Offline
Hi Daniel,
1-2) I will come back on this
3) Indeed, this was wrong. With consecutive landings when you put the floor height on the first landing all next landings will keep the same height.
6) It is possible to make them smaller. Show me what you need and I will check for it.
7) Show me how you expect to merge them. I will see what is possible
8-9-10-11) I wait for your reply
12 ) This is how I made the last file I send you. You need to define the exact position of your fixed newel and adapt the stair flight.
Regards
Michel
Hi Michel,
Although some of points have been clarified, some others are getting even more confusing…
1 What CAD program would you recommend?
2 Clear, presuming you can advice on a reasonably simple to use CAD program. 
3 Yes, I’ve done the correction but from your previous answer I was under the impression that if a landing already exists I’ll not have to adjust the height
4 and 5 I am interested in using them – see on 6
6 I’m thinking to actually use those landings, initially built to allow the creation of the balustrade. This way they will nicely surround the opening. If in the future I will decide to change the floor I will not need to touch the stair, stopping the change at those landings. That is the reason why I was considering to have a narrow landing. All measurements should be correct already but was not able to make them smaller than 120mm
7 Considering the above, I hope is clear why I want to merge those 2 elements (I’ll actually build them) hence the question remains: how can I merge into 1 piece
8 Pretty close, 5mm offset on the side where I was most confident
9 On the right – That means the suggested approach to extend the length beyond the first step is not a solution. I’m thinking that adding those 21mm to Flight#1 will solve the issue on the right. On the left – the newel post currently has the handrail of the existing stairs fixed on it’s axe (normally). The new newel post will replace the old one but not changing the position (new one will take over the old handrail). The new handrail, for the new stairs going to the attic (the one we’re building in SD) would then preferably be on newel post side to avoid interferences with the existing one (coming from the lower floor). I’ll have a closer look on the file you shared and revert
10 It seems to have a mind of it’s own
11 I’ll have a closer look on the file you shared and revert
12 Fully on the stringer is not possible due to it’s position. Partly on the stringer happens if I’m using to the maximum the available space between the wall and the old stair string board. I cannot say that I need it on or not. I’m only wondering if is not a better option to narrow the stairs (newel post position is fixed) just enough to have the newel post at the external edge of the stringboard – probably a cleaner constructive option
Best regards,
Daniel
August 7, 2014
Offline
Hi Daniel,
1 The best way is to correct via a cad program. You can work on the DXF files that you can use for production afterwards. You can use sketchUP to make your visual corrections and then translate the correction into a cad program.
2 The riser extend is to be done in cad also but is part of first correction. If you extend the stringer to the beam, you also need to extend the riser nesting that is on the stringer. This is a very easy change to do.
3 When you have your stair finished with a landing step at 3210mm and you add the first extra landing step then that step will take over the 3210mm and push down your actual landing step. You only need to go to your landing step and re-enter the 3210mm height. This will reset your stair correctly and all extra landings will stay at that same height so you can build a kind of platform where you can build your balustrade on. I see you have done this on your stair-file correctly.
4 Indeed, these are only used to make a platform and I do not check the nosing or risers on it as they are discarded anyway. You need to set all these extra landings to another material type so that you can ignore these on your cutting list. Also, you do not need to process the DXF file they will generate.
5 Yes these changes are only visual details that do not affect the technical aspect of the balustrade. You can set the nose on 0 and remove risers. You can also remove all the links parameters to the newels so that you have no penetrations in the newels of the balustrade and stair.
6 This is not very clear to me what your intentions are. Remember the added landings are only used to build the balustrade. They are needed to shape the opening where the stair fits in. In fact they represent the shape of the upper-floor. You are not going use them in your build. The only important measurement is that you set them correctly so that the size of the opening reflects the real situation.
7 No and this not needed. As I mentioned, the extra landings are visual add-ons that are technically not linked to the stair. Your actual stair landing step is the one that defines where the stair stops. All others are floor shaping and adding.
8 I added a cad view showing the distance.
9 The left one is nearly reaching the beam. It should sit further on the beam but you can also add an extra support beam between 2 existing beams. I attached a picture. About the left one. If you move the post in lateral direction, it will not change the length of the stringer unless you are no longer in contact with the stringer. Then the stringer will fall back to its original cut length as there is no link anymore with the newel. You might need to reduce the width of the first flight if you do not want the newel to connect with your stringer. You can then add some length to the stringer and extend to the beam via a cad program. I made a change to you stair that you can use as an inspiration on your newel and stringer on the right side. The only thing you need to do is extend the stringer to the beam. The newel sits on the first step which makes a better shape possible.
10 The best way is to got to the step view and double click on the step which will launch the step-shaping. It is a learning curve ;-).
11 See the changed stair-file
12 As explained earlier it might be needed if you need the newel against the stringer and not on it.
Michel
Hi Michel
I need to clarify couple of aspects
1. Clear now that SketchUp could not be used for making corrections. What would you recommend? I hope there is a simple way.
2. In other words, we should put the stair 23-25mm above the underfloor (need to check how much the adhesive would take, presumably 1-2mm). The height remains the same as I took into account the distance between the underfloors. However, first riser might need an extension as well. What is the best way of doing it, CAD program?
3. Additional landing steps, here is where I got stuck. Although I have a landing step (actually the last step) it seems all the following are added higher than previous, which seems the opposite of what you described. When putting the height back to 3210 all seem to level. What am I doing wrongly?
4. I noticed on those last 2 landings in your drawing is a YES for risers, which I changed to NO (makes no sense). Is it correct?
5. For the same 2, nosing was set to 35mm. Changed to 0mm as makes no sense. Any unforeseen implications? There was some overlapping visible which seems to disappear after making the above changes
6. Can I reduce the 2 landings added for closing the opening to as narrow as possible (let’s say 120mm)? It seems to be a limitation beyond which SD crashes
7. Can the first landing (actually the last step) and the second one become one single piece? It would make more sense constructively.
8. I tried to place the first newel post in the same place as the old one. It’s not easy without seeing the dimensions hence not sure if I managed. Could you check if now it is positioned 1060mm from the left edge and 1830mm from the left edge of Flight#2?
9. I closed the 21mm gap as you suggested so now both stringers should end precisely on the corresponding beams. However, the right one doesn’t seem to do that and changing length whenever I move the newel post. Why is that and how can avoid?
10. First step shaping seems more complicated than I thought so I wonder if I’m not doing something wrong
11. Now that (I hope) the first newel post is in the right position, there are 2 things to check in details: fixing the stringboard into it and the handrail on the side
12. I made both flights of 1090mm, that being the maximum I can fit in between the old stair stringers and the wall (as explained earlier, there is actually nothing forcing me to change to 1040mm as the opening in the attic is not build yet – last beam can shift). Considering the unmovable newel post and how that is influencing the right stringer, would you consider beneficial to change to narrower one?
Best regards,
Daniel
August 7, 2014
Offline
Hi Daniel,
Forget Sketch-up. If you had a full version, the DXF you could export is just not usable. The only valid DXF is from SD and this one you can correct in a cad program. Sketch-up is good to visualize the stair in the room.
About the landing this is the correct way. It first putt he stair in sketch-up to see the overall fit but was not really aware on you proceedings but yes the last step needs to be higher than the underfloor to match the floor later on.
You can close the opening with a balustrade. SD is currently not explicitly equipped to do it but it is fairly easy to make by adding landing steps that you shape and afterwards you can add a stringer (needed to process the banisters), newels and handrails.
The only point of attention is when you add the first landing it will take over the total height so you have to put the total height back on you stair landing step (if you have one). If you did not put in place a stair landing step in the first place, then the height remains correct. All landing added afterwards will keep the total height.
I added an example of your stair with it so that you can play around with the balustrade. Be aware that this is not your last version of stair so it differs from the one you a currently working on.
regards
Michel
Hi Michel,
I will try the suggested approaches. In the meantime, I want to better understand the following:
I am not sure about what you mean but you can export to DXF from sketch-up but this is not usable to process for machining. The only DXF is the one you get from SD as it has all the needed details for production. Once you are satisfied with the drawing a checks in sketch-up I can provide you the needed files for production.
You can change the stringer shape in sketch-up and note the needed measurements and correct the DXF stringer from SD in the cad program. To me this looks the easiest way to process this.
If my understanding is correct, the only output needed for production comes from SD. However, the DXF file needs to be further processed to include the required adjustments. This is where things are becoming confusing as I cannot neither export nor import DXF from/into SketchUp free version (which I use).
Coming back (now that the size of the opening is more or less defined) to a topic we paused for a while, horizontal handrail from the attic closing the sides of the opening. How can these be made in SD?
Regarding the landing step, an alternative approach would be to place it at 23-25mm from the underfloor, allowing the installation of 21mm floor.
The advantage is all the floor will be at the same level. Disadvantages are given by the nature of the wood (pine for the stairs vs. oak for the floor) and a height constrain if the floor will be changed in the future. However, placing it at the same level as the underfloor (as it is now in the imported file) will trigger a different height for the last step, making the last riser quite high (>220), quite unacceptable. The existing stairs are using this approach, however for those the rise is only 165mm (and in time I learned that last step is higher
). What do you think?
Best regards,
Daniel
1 Guest(s)
